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Post by Alex Millar on Sept 19, 2017 15:28:39 GMT
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Post by JP (admin) on Sept 19, 2017 15:53:56 GMT
Hi Alex. There are many types of dollars, including paper dollars issued by the Bank of Canada, digital dollars issued by the Bank of Canada, coins issued by the mint, and deposits issued by private banks. Are you asking about any one of these in particular?
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Post by Alex on Sept 19, 2017 17:42:26 GMT
I'm asking about dollars in general. If the answer to my question has four parts (as you imply) feel free to focus the most signifigant part or parts.
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Post by JP (admin) on Sept 19, 2017 18:34:07 GMT
So who benefits from the creation of these tokens? The same people who benefit from the creation of any other good. McDonalds benefits from the burger creation process because it earns a profit on each one. At the same time consumers benefit because a tasty burger makes them better off.
The same with Bank of Canada banknotes. A fresh $20 bill is willingly held by a member of the public--it improves their position by making them feel more capable of making transactions. The Bank of Canada makes a profit off of the bill, which it sends to the government. So in a sense all Canadian taxpayes/voters benefit from the creation of paper money, since we are all metaphorical shareholders in the government.
In the case of a deposit, its the same. Both producer and consumer benefit. Except banks are private, so the shareholders enjoy the profit rather than the taxpaying public.
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Post by Antti Jokinen on Sept 19, 2017 20:35:06 GMT
Let me step in here.
Alex, I've just watched you interview JP on Youtube. Cool! Thanks. It helped me understand even better where JP comes from.
It helped me also to understand where you're coming from. That is, how you view money.
I think this question of yours is based on a false premise. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that one purpose of this question is to highlight how great Bitcoin is, compared to "paper money". Am I wrong?
The "creation of Canadian dollars" should be seen as part of a whole, where the whole is a bookkeeping system for trades (you find on this same forum our topic on money being a "they owe me", TOM). So perhaps you should ask "Who benefits from this bookkeeping system?". As JP says, everyone benefits, although surely some more than others. For every Canadian dollar created there is a liability of exactly the same magnitude created, which is not true in the case of Bitcoin. So Bitcoins and Canadian dollars are not comparable, at all.
I'm not saying that there aren't any problems with our current monetary system, at least when it comes to the way it is run. I think total debt is way too high and will cause problems, and the way we have run the monetary system has to take a lot of blame on total debt being as high as it is.
By the way, you can be sure that if Bitcoin ever becomes a real, widely used currency, then only the sky is the limit when it comes to the quantity of Bitcoin. You will see banks creating "Bitcoins" (deposits). Hardcore Bitcoin fans might say that these are not really Bitcoins, but most people wouldn't, rightly I think, see much difference. Both serve the same purpose, which is to get goods moving between people. The next generation version of Alex Millar would be asking: "Who benefits from the creation of all these Bitcoins?".
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Post by Alex on Sept 20, 2017 0:04:01 GMT
JP, Anyone is free to compete to create burgers. In a competitive market one must assume that net benefits for producers are small, since earnings will approach costs. Yes: ignoring externalities, consumers who voluntarily buy burgers also benefit. One the other hand, the creation of dollars is illegal for all but a select number of private banks (in the case of deposit-tokens.) This means we should expect the net benefits of creating dollars to be great. Especially so since the cost of creating a deposit in a private ledger that says "Alice owes PrivateBank $X to be repaid at Y% interest," is negligible. I don't believe it is inaccurate to say banks are making new dollars out of thin air. As with the case of burgers, the consumer (Alice) benefits since she takes the loan voluntarily. But unlike the burger case, the externalities here cannot be ignored. Creating new tokens does not increase net wealth; tokens are not a magic source of free energy. The net-benefits of PrivateBank and Alice are counter-balanced by the net-detriment of the token-holding general public, since each pre-existing token will devalue due to the increased supply of tokens. The obvious next question is, "Why don't Private Banks create tokens faster than 6.5% per year?" I assume the answer is that if new tokens were created too quickly, the tokens would devalue so quickly that people might switch to another, for example the USD. Not wanting to rock the boat, Private Banks agree among themselves to limit production to 6.5%. Annti, Yes, I'm a big fan of bitcoin. In order to persuasively argue for bitcoin means arguing against fiat, and that means understanding how it is created. Regarding Bitcoin-IOU's: The difficulty of auditing gold reserves undoubtedly contributed to the pervasiveness of fractional reserves and the exponential increase in gold IOU's in the 1600-1971 era. However, auditing bitcoin reserves is trivial. www.coindesk.com/bitstamp-audit-proves-behind-147m-mystery-bitcoin-wallet/ Exchanges and investment funds that run fractional reserves won't survive the next bear market. That's speaking of the potential growth of bitcoin-IOUs as a store of value. I've never heard of someone accepting a bitcoin-IOU as a medium of exchange, and can't imagine a reason to do so.
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Post by JP (admin) on Sept 20, 2017 3:05:04 GMT
JP, Anyone is free to compete to create burgers. In a competitive market one must assume that net benefits for producers are small, since earnings will approach costs. Yes: ignoring externalities, consumers who voluntarily buy burgers also benefit. One the other hand, the creation of dollars is illegal for all but a select number of private banks (in the case of deposit-tokens.) This means we should expect the net benefits of creating dollars to be great. Especially so since the cost of creating a deposit in a private ledger that says "Alice owes PrivateBank $X to be repaid at Y% interest," is negligible. I don't believe it is inaccurate to say banks are making new dollars out of thin air. As with the case of burgers, the consumer (Alice) benefits since she takes the loan voluntarily. But unlike the burger case, the externalities here cannot be ignored. Creating new tokens does not increase net wealth; tokens are not a magic source of free energy. The net-benefits of PrivateBank and Alice are counter-balanced by the net-detriment of the token-holding general public, since each pre-existing token will devalue due to the increased supply of tokens. The obvious next question is, "Why don't Private Banks create tokens faster than 6.5% per year?" I assume the answer is that if new tokens were created too quickly, the tokens would devalue so quickly that people might switch to another, for example the USD. Not wanting to rock the boat, Private Banks agree among themselves to limit production to 6.5%. You're right about the lack of competition. That's why I generally support the idea of free banking, which allows for relatively free entrance into the business of banking and bank note production. Increased competition would drive profits down to cost of production. While the cost of creating a deposit is negligible, there are many other expenses that must be incurred to run a bank: maintaining a branch network, running credit checks on potential borrowers, incurring credit losses, fraud prevention, staying on the right side of regulations, etc. I agree that a deposit can be created "out of thin air", so to say, but so can a new equity share, bond, or any other sort of IOU or promise. Yet it would make little sense to condemn IPOs, equity raises, or bond issuance on this basis. Ease of issuance is a feature of any promise. Private banks can't devalue the total supply of existing tokens. This is because private banks can't force the public to accept deposits that they do not want. Say the Royal Bank lends new deposits into the economy in excess of the public's demand for money. Those deposits will quickly be returned to Royal Bank for redemption. Royal Bank will be forced to call in loans in order to make good on these redemption requests. Thus the excess is quickly fixed. This answers you're last question: Why don't private banks create tokens faster than 6.5% a year. They can only create as many deposits as the public is willing to hold.
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Post by Alex on Sept 20, 2017 16:31:25 GMT
"I agree that a deposit can be created "out of thin air", so to say, but so can a new equity share, bond, or any other sort of IOU or promise. Yet it would make little sense to condemn IPOs, equity raises, or bond issuance on this basis. Ease of issuance is a feature of any promise."
I don't condemn selling shares of a company, or selling bonds to the assets of a company, because (like burgers) creating those assets is open to anyone and results in minimal negative externalities.
"Private banks can't devalue the total supply of existing tokens."
I agree and didn't say they could. I said that increasing the total supply (aka number) of tokens, devalues each individual token. Thus when a bank creates new tokens and lends them to Alice, Bob (who holds tokens) loses wealth. A government-granted oligopoly that impoverishes those who don't borrow is an immoral system.
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Post by JP (admin) on Sept 21, 2017 1:12:40 GMT
"I don't condemn selling shares of a company, or selling bonds to the assets of a company, because (like burgers) creating those assets is open to anyone and results in minimal negative externalities."
So maybe we can agree on free banking as a policy?
"Thus when a bank creates new tokens and lends them to Alice, Bob (who holds tokens) loses wealth."
I don't follow. Maybe you can explain it step by step.
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Post by Alex on Sept 21, 2017 4:57:42 GMT
In general, the value that people attach to a good (and the price they'll pay) is inversely proportional to the supply of the good When a bank creates new dollars, every other dollar becomes a little bit less scarce and thus less valued by people.
New tokens does not create new wealth. Wealth is a type of energy, and one can't create great energy by printing green paper, or by adding zeros to a spreadsheet because the law of conservation of energy.
The act of printing new tokens isn't useful work, it's just a sneaky way for those in power to get more power from those not in power.
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Post by oliver on Sept 21, 2017 8:29:49 GMT
In general, the value that people attach to a good (and the price they'll pay) is inversely proportional to the supply of the good When a bank creates new dollars, every other dollar becomes a little bit less scarce and thus less valued by people. New tokens does not create new wealth. Wealth is a type of energy, and one can't create great energy by printing green paper, or by adding zeros to a spreadsheet because the law of conservation of energy. The act of printing new tokens isn't useful work, it's just a sneaky way for those in power to get more power from those not in power. The tokens themselves do not create new wealth. But people who borrow newly creaed tokens promise to create new wealth. It is the quality of those promises that determines whether the value of tokens remains stable or not. That is why a one sided view as money as only an asset, as opposed to a book keeping view of money as a process whereby both an asset (option to consume wealth) and a liability (obligation to create wealth) are created simultaneously, is dangerous / wrong. If that weren't so, you'd see money losing ist purchasing power much much faster than it does.
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Post by Alex on Sept 21, 2017 15:38:42 GMT
Hi Oliver,
You seem to believe the best incentive system for promoting the creation of wealth is obligations to reduce debt. However, many debt and obligation-free people do useful work, and they have done so for millennia. They are incentivized by a desire to collect assets, such as gold, bitcoin, and carrots. You're either claiming that carrots don't work, or that they don't work as well as fear of a stick works. Your claim is depressing and impossible to prove.
"a one sided view as money as only an asset, as opposed to a book keeping view of money as a process whereby both an asset (option to consume wealth) and a liability (obligation to create wealth) are created simultaneously, is dangerous / wrong."
What harm or danger resulted from the thousands of years in which money was only an asset (gold and silver)?
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Post by oliver on Sept 21, 2017 16:27:25 GMT
Hi Oliver, You seem to believe the best incentive system for promoting the creation of wealth is obligations to reduce debt. However, many debt and obligation-free people do useful work, and they have done so for millennia. They are incentivized by a desire to collect assets, such as gold, bitcoin, and carrots. You're either claiming that carrots don't work, or that they don't work as well as fear of a stick works. Your claim is depressing and impossible to prove. Hi Alex The two are not mutually exclusive. The idea is to put debt to use as what it is, namely an obligation (to produce). I see nothing depressing in that. And that can be achieved without paying down principal (reducing debt), although I don't see why that would be preferable for the debtor (it is for the bank). So I agree that intrinsic motivation is important. But it is also perfectly fine for people to be in debt to one another (not move in sync), as long as there is an additional motivating force (whether intrinsic or extrinsic) to make sure that total debt does not get out of hand. None (although some might challenge whether it really was so). What is harmful though, is treating modern money as though it were still gold or silver. It very clearly isn't. Commodity money didn't live up to the needs of modern capitalist economies. And I see bitcoin as a misguided attempt to bring back commodity money (barter) without actually doing so.
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Post by Alex on Sept 21, 2017 18:46:52 GMT
The depressing thing with debt-based money is that those in power can and do create it ad infinitum. Devaluation of tokens causes inflation of prices, and incents individuals to take on debt. The net effect is a continual transfer of wealth from have-nots to haves.
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Post by oliver on Sept 21, 2017 20:21:21 GMT
The depressing thing with debt-based money is that those in power can and do create it ad infinitum. Devaluation of tokens causes inflation of prices, and incents individuals to take on debt. The net effect is a continual transfer of wealth from have-nots to haves. Was there ever a time without debt? Imagine money was pure gold and then I borrowed some from you because I had too little to start my business. That's debt right there! And it took two to tango. Is the problem you're describing not one of power, as opposed to debt? Why not address that directly? Also don't forget the old proverb: “If you owe a bank thousands, you have a problem; owe a bank millions, the bank has a problem”. I agree there can be and are many false incentives to take on debt and there definitely is a lot of it in the wrong hands. I'm certainly not advocating more of it, just trying to describe the world as it is. OTOH, what incentivises individuals to take on debt imo, is too little income in the hands of the many to buy all the things the economy produces. That's a distributional problem, same as the power problem. Btw. debtors profit from inflation. Bloated balance sheets of central banks are another phenomenon that make it seem like there is a lot of money being created. But if the central bank comes and buys all the treasury bonds I saved for retirement with new money and then buries them in the ground, is there really more financial wealth 'out there' for me to exchange for goods when I'm old? You can't just look at one measure (money) and conclude the world is about to implode and that everything was better back in the day...
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